Discussion time... please contribute!!

[flycatchr]

Chaos is definitely able to bring something to the party in terms of his leadership and almost militant style of demanding team work when playing league games. From what I have observed from the Danglers, that is something that was lacking in some games, as I said, I am looking in from the outside and definitely have no clue what happened in the game itself. All that I know, the Danglers should have wiped the floor with the Nutz, individually each player in the Danglers is way better than the Nutz, yet they did not. I would say, should we merge then a paradigm shift will be required from who is “actually” the better team… as of now, it is not a given that it is the Danglers. I also think, and I could be wrong, that the Danglers, consciously or unconsciously, are a very “clicky” team. This is not necessarily a bad thing, since the only way to become like that is to play an enormous amount of games together, and this is only achieved by years of playing together. I am not so convinced that bringing in some extraordinary strong personalities, like Chaos, into that team dynamic will be such an “easy” experience as some of you may think. Saying that, Chaos was able to produce results with a fair number of “second-rated” players (me, SloDaz, Murgs) that could not even make the cut for the “first-team” yet we ended at the end of the league with some very good performances.

I would not hesitate for a second to play in Chaos team, however, we need to realize that he has a very strong personality, and that is not something that we should ignore nor take lightly. I am not sure how many of the old grrr guys will accept such a strong personality marching into grrr without having some second thoughts about their decision now. A bull in a china shop comes to mind. Neither would I be happy if Chaos is now required to change his personality, because that is what makes him a good team contributor.

QFT

skoups - i do not feel that you have stepped on my toes, and thanks for your honest thoughts. I also think u are selling slo, murgs and yourself a little short. you guys are very good players.

[SlipperyDuck]

Honestly I don't think there is a "b" team with this mix of players....We've got so much talent from every which way! I don't think we EVER looked at BBH GRRR Mixed Nuts as the "b" team, in fact at the start we were saying that it's likely that the Nuts may have a better chance in getting into the premier league, so essentially the Danglers are the "b" team?

SloDaz' post with the MADNESS and getting the kids in line - sheesh, that's like every given Sunday around these parts - we have the SAME thing too with our own folks.
*Imagine trying to do pre-match chat in BC2 when you're constantly getting TK'd and a game where you can't chat whilst dead......

Anyway, my point (I guess) is that yes, BBH (and our glorious Nutz) have done a great job in the league, the commitment has been there and the achievements are self evident. The Danglers, well, let's just say we've had our problems(won't bore you with the details). Going forward I consider it an honour to play in ANY of the teams, they are both 1st teams in my opinion.

But yeah, I hear where you guys are coming from and we don't want to take anything away from anyone.

This Merge is something that has actually been on the cards for a year now, BBH and GRRR are honestly like the brother/sister Clans in the battlefield community.

While a point or two have been made around fielding the strongest team and what not, from my side of the table that is not only objective of the merge, if it was I'd want no part of it!
So don't hit any PANIC buttons, this is not like corporate policy or anything, with the "live with it" arrogance that is usually associated, you(everyone) have a say here and I'm glad you've said it.

I for one am excited about it, as we will gain a lot of new and old friends and in doing so possibly make this the best clan (yes, we are already ) to be associated with in South Africa.

[Voetsek-Mikey]

As long as I have The [grrr] tags in front of my nick. All is good.

BBH is a friendly bush and plays a good game!

Chaos is a great person. His experience and leadership we can use. With all the other BBH troops we can only grow into a better and bigger clan. The more players to choose from.
And I for one does not mind making way for a better player............... We all know there does not exist one, but I had to say something!

IT IS A GOOOOOOD IDEA !!!!!!

[Onyx]

I am probably the only one that’s not going to be too excited about this idea so I guess that would then mean I need to re-evaluate my reasons for being in this clan? I have had to make some very tough real life decisions over the past 6 months and I am quite possibly just being overly protective and sensitive when it comes to my online family.

I am fine with BBH being our sister clan: you can have tons of fun with your sister, hang out and play together and even have her borrow your clothes (tags for the league), but at the end of the day, she goes home and we go home – you DON’T marry your sister The essence of grrr has a very unique taste and feel to it - i would hate for that to get spoilt or diluted.

Don’t get me wrong, BBH have some really great members (I don’t really know the new ones), but I am not sure they are all grrr material; otherwise they would have applied to join our clan? They chose BBH for a reason which then leaves the question how do they feel about the merger and would those who don’t like it, be kicked out or be persuaded to leave quietly?

My personal feelings aside and looking at this unemotionally and logically, I can understand why you want to merge - Grrr is a gaming clan after all (as has been pointed out), so therefore that should be its only priority. Being friends is just a by-product. Grrr would have a bigger pool of good players to choose from when playing league matches and clannies, etc.

I am not in favour of this merge, but if it means gaining 10+ extremely good gaming members at the risk of maybe losing a couple, then it’s worth it, right? My life has recently become like a box of chocolates. I don’t even know if I will be online in the near future and I definitely don’t see myself as being competitive anymore. Gaming, at the moment, is more for fun and relaxation and spending time with friends. My reasons for not liking the idea, I feel, are thus irrelevant as they are based on the fact that (for me) friendship and family far outweigh that of being competitive.

[flycatchr]

BBH is a friendly bush

one should NOT speak about sisters like that, EVER

edit - can we at least keep that particular post/quote so that they can see what they will have to deal with

[Phatso]

Sjoe! Hectic times online and offline it seems. I would've like to reply yesterday, but I just ran out of time. It was a good idea to "sleep on it" per se as there are now more opinions in the mix, making for a more interesting discussion.

Upfront let me quickly say that I have been one of the bigger let-downs in the league. My apologies to the clan for not performing the way I can. My life has been a clusterf*ck of late, and hasn't allowed for me to relax and enjoy an evening properly in a while. I have been working too hard, self-sacrificing too much, had life-changing family events (not good ones) and a whole host of other things decaying my spirits for the entire duration of the league. Sorry guys...

I know I am also one of the newer grrrbians, but I am sure my opinion is worth a penny or two.

With regards to the merger itself, off the bat, it makes a lot of sense. BBH (and the old BFB) and Grrr have always had a very good relationship and can easily be said to be the best clan-clan one in the BF community. What started as a brother sister clan, became a clan we practiced with and against to eventually joining up with our clanmates for competitive play. And with great success - GG Nutz, you guys had one hell of a league and definitely dispelled any myth of "A" team - "B" team bullshit.

(Toe-stepping time - I know I let the team down heaps btw... )
If anything, the Danglers need the help and the Nutz need to thrive as they are, working from strength to strength. What looked like a SERIOUS force to be reckoned with on paper, found things very rough in the league. Perhaps it was a combination of RL issues / PC issues / time issues / opposition issues / lack of practice/public play issues ... The truth is, the team didn't perform as well as I think anyone thought. We had some very bright moments however, and show the potential needed to get moving.
(end toe-stepping)

Vinko (Chaos) is indeed one of the more awesome guys in the BF community. An outstanding leader, team captain and all-round battlefield player. A gent to match, that will always go out of his way to greet and make a joke with you. He does however, have a VERY short temper (I don't mind, I can relate). Grrr has always had a very passive presence on the SGS forums. There, but never picking a side in a big argument. Vinko does pick sides. And he expresses himself proper. Additionally, I would imagine that he would need to be in quite a senior position in the scheme of things. Is everyone cool with that? (I am, but Grrr needs to still be run by Grrr)

We should be accommodating ofcourse, BUT they need to adapt to a greater degree than us. They are joining us, and I know that NO ONE in Grrr will have a big head ("i was here before you") but BBH may have one or two guys that may feel a sense of entitlement... We need to be careful with these guys as it will only take one little blow-up to cause a rift right through a newly formed alliance.

[flycatchr]

I have been giving this some more thought, and reading what has been said, and between the lines.

We already have an "us vs them" scenario , which right now is NOT a bad thing, because in reality it is called team spirit. We have two teams, and both teams hate losing.
My point:
We would not gain anything by merging because we already have two teams, and since the nuts did better than the danglers, they are already the competitive team. What would be expected of the new "A" team or "b"team to change and give up regarding old team work/camaraderie (refer to murg's post).

I seem to remember a split with BFB and BBH, and then whatever happened with U2M and Chaos. (which, afaik hasn't been resolved). Given Shadey's reservation of character clashes, and since I am a firm believer in not having broken relationships, I have reservations regarding this proposed merger. (don't get me wrong, I get on well with chaos, but then I get on well with most peeps.)
My point:
I am using the above argument to express my concern about character, (not the specifics of what happened.) and how his strong character will fit into grrr.

Please also understand where I am coming from - I have had certain experience with "mergers". The church I belonged to merged with another church (sister churches), all hunky dory, for a while. Then things got messy and bitter taste in mouth. (CHURCHES FFS!!!!!!!!)
My point:
From my limited experience with mergers, I kinda agree with ony - don't marry your sister.

Another thought about competitiveness:
It doesn't much make sense to me to want to be more competitive, and then import the competitiveness to the point where those wanting the competitiveness wont be competitive.
My point:
As grrr I have ALWAYS viewed us as family first, and then gamers, and then competing for the sake of having fun together. Now it seems that being competitive is first, and that worries me ITO loosing our grrr-ness.

At this point I am still hoping for something from digital life, and I do wonder at the consequences, which I wont speculate on. Since Vinko was the one that put our name forward as well, it may well be a positive if he is with us.

I would also like to know who initiated the merger, I know lee spoke about it a long time ago to vinko, (at rage2009) but who brought up the subject first. I know drags and lee both think it is a good idea, but again I am concerned about hidden agendas.

NOW - having said a lot that sounds negative, this could be the best thing to happen in the SA clan scene, instead of splitting up a clan (ala FIB) we are merging 2 clans to make a force to be reckoned with, with guys that in the most part we wouldn't exclude were they to apply on their own. In the majority they are grrr material, and I would be honoured to have them in my clan.

[Phatso]

NOW - having said a lot that sounds negative, this could be the best thing to happen in the SA clan scene, instead of splitting up a clan (ala FIB) we are merging 2 clans to make a force to be reckoned with, with guys that in the most part we wouldn't exclude were they to apply on their own. In the majority they are grrr material, and I would be honoured to have them in my clan.

This is a very positive and true point. Well put Fly.

[flycatchr]

thanks phats, you are such a honey

[pmurgs]

I really don't know if BBH merging into Grrr is a good or bad thing. I joined Grrr to have a group of people to play BC2 with. I hadn't really considered playing in a league. Now that I am playing in a league, I am enjoying having something different to focus on, than just playing on the public servers every night. I wouldn't be bothered though, if I wasn't playing in the league or which team I was playing in the league if we changed the teams around.

There seems to be two sides to this proposed merger. One is making the clan stronger for league games and two is do we want to increase the size of our little group. So for number one, will BBH make us more competitve in league games, I don't know as right now, we are largly acting as if we are one clan, with us having Danglers and Nuts. For two... do we want to increase our clan size... well, since I'm new I find I really don't have an opinion on whether more Grrrians will make Grrr a nicer place to be. If pushed, I guess I would be inclined to think that if the BBH guys joined us, Grrr as a group of friends would be strengthened by larger numbers and being a bit more diverse.

I will say, since I have spent time in Nuts, that the BBH guys have been very pleasant to play alongside with. They do feel a bit different to Grr, but I'm going to chalk that up to the fact that I only spend time with them in a clan game environment, which is different to messing around on the public servers with Grrr. I have appreciated Chaos's commanding style, as it has forced us to focus more on what we need to do to win.

Regarding the U2M comments... U2M and I were both in the MerC clan in BF2 for a good while. Before the clan broke up, with most of us going on to other online games. U2M and myself had a falling out before MerC closed which has not been resolved. Since seeing him again in BC2, I've given him some thought and decided that the issue which caused our falling out, was 4 years ago and really has no relevance to today, so I'm not going to object being on the same ts with him. But I am wary of him after what I experianced, so will not be going out of my way to make friends with him again, although I've been trying just get along with him in game. I was unaware Chaos had a falling out with him, and considering what happened when U2M and I fell out, I think I can understand why Chaos is not inclined to try patch things up with U2M. I don't think U2M and I could patch things up, after what I experianced from U2M. U2M is usually very nice and pleasant to get along with, but... he can also turn very nasty and stubborn if there is a serious disagreement.

So in summation... I'm not sure how good or bad idea this proposed merger is. If it will make us stronger for the league and that is a priority for this clan, then I'm for it. If we want to bring some friends inside with us, so we can become better friends, then I'm for it. But I am sure, merging will not be a painless process.