GRRR Squad Forum

Yes remember too Fire. Your level of commitment to what you are doing directly determines what you get out.
If you only half heartedly do something you will get those kinda results.

You want big results.... give big commitment.

TygerBS wrote:Yes remember too Fire. Your level of commitment to what you are doing directly determines what you get out.
If you only half heartedly do something you will get those kinda results.

You want big results.... give big commitment.

I'm an all or nothing kind of guy, doing something half way just feels wrong, and I ever get in a place where I don't feel like giving my all or even throwing my very being into it... Well then I don't belong there.

I feel like I want to take that risk and just go for it, hell if I have to be a bartender to be able to buy food I'll be willing to do it.

If I can run after my passion and be happy, even if I bump my head on the way a few times, I think it would be better than going on the path that I am now. Because if I'm passionate about it, I'll put everything into it.

Ok, this is my views. Fire, as you, I did not go to any university after matric. I’ve basically finished matric on the Friday and the Monday I’ve started working in Standard Bank as a teller. I did however study my arse off (all my studies was part time). This was funded partly by the bank and the rest by myself. Basically, get that piece of paper behind your name as soon as you can.

Like you, I enjoyed my job and it helped make ends meet, but I knew I will not be happy as a teller for a long period of time. I was fortunate in that I had an excellent mentor (my father) who basically taught me that the only way you will get a promotion is if the opportunity arrives that you are the most obvious choice for that position. At that stage, the bank had something called SITO (standing instructions to officers) which was 26 volumes each containing about a 1000 pages. So whenever I had free time I would study those books, back to front. After I balanced (teller) I would then go and help out in various different departments to learn what they do etc.

As luck would have it, some people left (they were fired because they committed fraud) and suddenly they needed somebody in the credit department, as mentioned before, the best way to get that promotion is to just be the obvious replacement / choice. So that is how I ended up six months after starting in the bank working in credit department. That was quite a nice job for me, but any promotion you are looking for may not be all sunshine and roses and that is what I learned there as well. I really hated some aspects of my job, it felt like I could do so much more, people doesn’t listen to my ideas, sounds familiar?

One such an example was that I remember getting super p’eed off because of the way in which the bank was recording security documents (manually) and how they forced me to do that crap (instead of doing the fun work assessing credit etc.). Today, 19 years later on and managing my own team of credit analyst, I so badly wish I can give them the same experience I had with regard to recording security documents, and the preparation around it. Doing it the way I did forced me to learn the importance of accuracy and how to ensure no errors are made. So yes, I did not appreciate when I had to do it, but as time went on, that kind of OCD / accuracy became second nature to me and it have since helped me many times over.

I know you don’t agree with it now, nor do you see it that way now, but 95% of the times if somebody tells you “Do it, because it will help you in the long run”, they are actually correct. They’ve been there, they’ve done that, and they got that t-shirt. The developer that tells you no, do it their way or the high-way, may very well be doing it because they are arrogant, but it may just be because they actually do know what they are talking about. So rather than getting pissed off with them, perhaps just try to understand their logic and try to understand why they feel their way is better than yours. My best managers I’ve ever had, who I am still in regular contact with, had massive arguments (and I mean massive!) about pretty much everything. I will never forget what my one manager told me (which is exactly what I am telling all my colleagues as well) is that the day we stop arguing, that is the day we need to part ways. (Our last day at the company was on the same day…)

Remember as a rule, most managers will welcome something that is better as that will score them brownie points with their bosses. So if you know your idea is better but you are unable to convince him about it, perhaps it is not your idea that he is shooting down but your ability to convey your point… So perhaps you need to work on how you could more effectively convey your message, then again, it may also just be a failure from your side to understand the bigger picture and that your idea is irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. (I.e. you may have found a great way on how to speed up something 10 times, but for him, that is like number 200 on the priority list because it is cheaper to just buy a bigger CPU than chance all his code. Or that for him a bigger problem is the fact that his biggest client just gave notice on their contract or something so your solution is just immaterial and has very little consequences to his problems now). My point, just because your manager doesn’t agree with your points and want something in a specific way, does not automatically make him a dick, try to understand his logic and his mindset and then see if your solution is still the best.

I totally and utterly disagree with that crap of following your dream and do what you are passionate in and money will follow you, that is just KAK! Let’s assume I am passionate about building computers (and I am), no matter how much I enjoy it, no matter how much time, energy, money and passion I put into it, I will never be able to buy my own island from its proceeds. Show me a business plan that with me building computers will enable me to buy my own island, so basically, you can have all the passion and energy in the world, if it is a kak endeavour, it is a kak endeavour!

I do agree that you get two kinds of people, you get entrepreneurs and you get corpreteneurs. Everybody knows what an entrepreneur is, that is basically the guy that is quite comfortable not knowing how he will pay for the lights tomorrow or what he may be eating next month. They are generally more risk taking as most entrepreneurs fail. In my mind, they fail because they just did not apply just plain common sense to their business models and believed in this thing, “oh, but I am passionate about it therefor I will make it work” crap. The other kind of person is the Corpreteneur, they are the guys that are quite content working for a corporate / company / boss knowing that they will earn the salary at the end of the month and not needing to worry how the company will keep the lights burning next month. (to some degree, as you get higher up in the food chain, corpreteneurs start thinking like entrepreneurs but that is a different discussion and not relevant to your current predicament)

Not all people are entrepreneurs just as not all people fit in a corporate environment. Both groups have a chance to buy their own island, but the group consisting of corpreteneurs have a higher likelihood of earning a R1m per annum pay cheque while the entrepreneur has a higher likely hood of failing miserably or buying his island. This is a game of risk versus reward. Each person is different.

I have reviewed and analysed hundreds, if not thousands of business plans from people looking for start-up funding, I have seen some great ones over my life time, but the ones that succeed are really few and far between. It all depends on what your definition is of success, if your definition is to buy your own island, then that is one thing, but if it is to feed your family tomorrow and maybe take a nice holiday once a year, then you need to ask if you could not achieve the same result with working in a corporate environment with a lot less risk involved than with a startup company. Startup companies that succeed have passion, but their passion is not just how to build good computers, but how to make money, and lots of it. (Some exceptions to that rule is for instance the Google founders)

Regarding your current working environment, learn the rules and play by the rules and better yet, ensure that all parties play by them. For starters, I would review the Basic Conditions of Employment Act (BCEA) which must be displayed in A1 size somewhere in your offices. If you can’t find it, let me know and I am happy to forward it on to you. Learn each section of the act off by heart, then ensure that your boss knows you know that. Chances are great, if he is a developer, that he has never taken the time to actually read it. Know the rules, and play by the rules and force the rules on all parties involved in the game.

For instance, from what you described, the basic conditions of employment, section 15 states the following:
15. (1) An employer must allow an employee—
(a) a daily rest period of at least twelve consecutive hours between ending and recommencing work; and
(b) a weekly rest period of at least 36 consecutive hours which, unless otherwise agreed, must include Sunday.
(2) A daily rest period in terms of subsection (1)(a) may, by written agreement, be reduced to 10 hours for an employee—
(a) who lives on the premises at which the workplace is situated; and
(b) whose meal interval lasts for at least three hours.
(3) Despite subsection (1)(b), an agreement in writing may provide for—
(a) a rest period of at least 60 consecutive hours every two weeks; or
(b) an employee’s weekly rest period to be reduced by up to eight hours in any week if the rest period in the following week is extended equivalently.

So yeah, start by learning the rules, if they play dirty quote them section by section and if they still don’t clean up their act, then know that the law is behind you.

In my mind, I would not resign from my current job unless I know that I have something lined up. Working for oneself, is a lot different than working for somebody else. Just question though, why would you like to work for yourself? Is it because you can work when you want to, come in when you want to? (both which you can do that in a corporate as well) Everybody I have ever spoken to say they work much harder for themselves than they ever did working for a corporate. You currently don’t have leave, I assure you when working for yourself trying to get your company to buy your first island, you will not have a lot of holiday time either. If you don’t want an island, then you need to weight up the risks again and ask if a corporate environment is not sufficient for your needs. Bear in mind that you have the ability to learn from the guys that has been around the block already.

My biggest concern, let’s assume you try out this new venture and it does not work out, how will a 6 month “blank” look on your CV when you need to apply for a new job?

So my suggestions, for starters, see if your company is playing ball according to the employment act, send your CV around the market and see what somebody with your skills is worth, and continue with your part time venture. (again, know the rules and make sure that you are not breaking any for which your company could hold you accountable for).

At the end of the day, you need to worry about yourself and only yourself, as harsh as it may sound, if family is holding you back, tell them off and move on. I am not saying you need to be a dick about it, but you have to put your own needs first or else people will continue to take advantage of you, both in your personal life and in your professional life.

And that my son, is a wall of text…

Skoups, I have just read your wall of text and I don't quite agree with all of it.
This time now - of all times in his life would be the best time for him to try on his own. if he fails now, a 6 month space on his cv stating how he went about setting up his own business can be a great talking point in an interview, it is by NO means blank. it proves that he has the balls to take risks, and at the current phase of his life, including what we know about his character I believe it is the best time to start. His overheads are extremely low, reducing his risk considerably. His drive is high, he has youth and guts on his side. dont live in regret.

Fire I may be leaving my career in finances to join up with my dad's business near the end of the year. So I know the scary thoughts and feelings going through your head guy. It's always a gamble to give up what you worked so long for now, but when years passed and your older your always going to wonder what would have happened if you stayed or started your own thing. There's passion for something and then there's logic. You gotta have a balance of both. Like the guys said, talk to your boss about you situation and then take steps from there. Dont tellem you wanna start your own company lol.

flycatchr wrote:Skoups, I have just read your wall of text and I don't quite agree with all of it.
This time now - of all times in his life would be the best time for him to try on his own. if he fails now, a 6 month space on his cv stating how he went about setting up his own business can be a great talking point in an interview, it is by NO means blank. it proves that he has the balls to take risks, and at the current phase of his life, including what we know about his character I believe it is the best time to start. His overheads are extremely low, reducing his risk considerably. His drive is high, he has youth and guts on his side. dont live in regret.

Yip I agree with Fly, trying your own thing in your early 20s is fine, even if it fails completely you still have a chance to correct the course unlike if you have built something up and then risk it all at 40 or 50.

Also there won't be a 6 month gap in the CV, you will simple put down Self-Employed and say what you did and what lesson's you learnt.

Ok, as I am not sure how long this response will be, I’ll start off by saying the following, Fire, if you would like an unbiased person to review your business plan for your new company for you, please feel free to forward it on to me, I will be happy to sign an NDA for you as well thereby protecting the confidentiality of its contents. I have the tendency to say it as I see it, so you should get an honest opinion if you take up that offer.

Fly, I am curious to the odds of which will occur first

• Hell freezing over, and we grrr’s ice skate with the devil; or
• I say something on this forum and everybody agrees with what I say

Bookies have the odds at 2:1 I believe.

Ok, on to the serious matter. When you acquire a new skill, you basically have 4 phases you go through. This may be old news for some, but since I am typing this message, I am going to type it in any event. Let us assume the skill in question is you driving a car. Initially you will start off by being unconsciously unskilled, meaning, you have no idea whether or not you can drive a car, basically, you don’t know what you don’t know yet. Then you go for your first drive, and you suddenly become consciously unskilled. Basically, you now start to know what you don’t know and you can start working on learning those skills (for instance, hand brake, gear lever, clutch etc.). Then, as you do it more, you become consciously skilled, basically, you know what you need to know but you still need to think about it. In other words, you still need to consciously think "ok, I now need to move to second gear; ok, I should now turn on my indicator; oh, there is a car coming up behind me;". When you drive a lot, you become unconsciously skilled, basically you no longer need to think about gear changing, yuo don't worry about the car coming up behind you, you do it pretty much automatically. All skills you acquired goes through those phases and the perfect position to be in is that you should always have some which you can say "for that skill, I am still consciously unskilled, but I am doing x,y and z to rectify that position". (for me, right now, that is system architecture designs. I am only starting to know what I don't know about it and thus upskilling myself in that regrad)

There are two schools of thoughts on when you should try out your own company. On the one hand it is when you are very young. The benefits of this are that you are still an idiot, in terms of life experience, in terms of understanding the risks, assessing the risks, worrying about family etc. Basically, you are unconsciously unskilled; you still don’t know what you don’t know and you basically don't care (because you don't know about it nor do you worry about it). People in this category will do something nobody else with a bit more experience will even consider doing. These guys turns out to be the Google and Microsoft founders of the world. They have one thing in common, they are pure genius with exceptionally high IQ’s and they did not give a flying phuck what anybody else told them when they started. They went seriously big or they went home. Unfortunately, out of 1000 people that tries, maybe one will one day be able to buy themselves an island. The rest have to go back to flipping burgers at McDonalds in 6 months time or sooner depending on how long the war chest last.

The above is the one kind of entrepreneur, the other are one that has been toying with the idea for a very long time. Deep down knowing that he would not want to work for a salary for ever and he has used the time to prepare himself. He used formal employment as a stepping stone in order to get himself as skilled as possible, definitely reaching the consciously unskilled phase in various aspects of running a business and even reaching the consciously skilled in other areas. These guys generally have some form of war chest that they have built up, be it their pension or their savings. These guys will still take on risk, but it will be of a much more measured approach, i.e. not just ra-ra-ra we gonna own the world ra-ra-ra! They would have learned about networking skills, about the importance of compliance, the importance of having a good accountant but more importantly, the knowledge to put together a proper business case and also how to make that business a reality. Chances are these guys will not be able to buy themselves an island either, but the chances that they will have the skills and expertise to build themselves a proper business, not just one that keeps the lights on and going on holiday once a year, is much greater than the first guy.

A clever man once told me that an idea doesn’t mean anything. You may have the greatest idea in the world, unless you can successfully implement it, it is meaningless.

I appreciate I may sound harsh and that, but I have seriously seen a lot of great ideas being burnt to the ground simple because of the individuals not realising what they are getting themselves into. I have had a lot of conversations with entrepreneurs trying to get funding for their businesses, they all say the same thing. No, but my idea is the best in the world. Nobody else has the same idea. I am passionate about it. Nobody else can replicate my idea. The reality is the following:

1. Your idea is not unique; there are other people that have the same and better ideas. Not even Mark Shuttleworth’s idea was unique, he just figured out a good way to implement it.
2. You are not the only person that can do x,y and z. Lets pick software development, the biggest competition to that in South Africa is currently India, why, because they are able to produce code for next to nothing.
3. You are different than the next guy. I always laugh when a start-up tells me they would like to differentiate themselves on good service. Ok, so how will you ensure good service? Hmm, uuh, aah… will you have 24 hour call centres? Will you do an immediate product replacement if something is wrong? Will you immediately have the resources (staff) available to resolve your client’s problem, what if you have 3 clients at the same time, will you still have the resources to provide them all that service? What will this good service net you at the end of the month? If big corporates with very deep pockets are not able to deliver service knowing very well the cost of losing a client, what on earth makes you think you as a startup will?
4. Barrier to entry, got to love it when a small startup tells me, oh, but nobody else can do this because of x,y and z. Reality check, your war chest may be 6 months strong, but if a corporate would like to enter into that space, they can throw millions at it with resources you can only dream off.
5. Compliance, this is the one area that is so much overlook it is not even funny. Ignore SARS for a second because that already is a nightmare with VAT returns, tax invoices, tax returns, PAYE, UIF. Ignore SARS for a second, now you need to think about not one, but ALL the pieces of legislation that may, or may not, impact your area. I think I’ve read somewhere that for a bank in South Africa, they have something like a 228 pieces of legislation and charters they need to comply with. Startup companies can rarely afford a compliance officer, let alone one that is verse in all parts of the legislation governing your area. You need to break but one single rule for your company to go bust due to litigation. Hell, if you can get a good compliance officer who can help you with legal contracts (which there will be a lot of if you develop software for somebody) then that is already a great starting point.

Guys, don’t get me wrong, I am all for encouraging entrepreneurs, I think Africa needs more of them and fast. We need companies that can generate jobs and lots of it. However, it is like those guys appearing on idols which gets asked the question: “dude, seriously, you want to tell me you have no friends that have ever told you to stop singing??”

As I mentioned before, each person have a different risk appetite, but just having passion alone is not going to buy you that island. Just having an idea, without have the ability, skills, and war chest to implement it, is not going to buy you that island. Having a business plan that is not even written down on paper and reviewed by friends, colleagues, and critics, is not going to buy you an island. A very good tip I can give anybody if they would like somebody to review their business plans for free is to prepare one, then take it to your bank and ask them for a loan against it without you putting any of your own money in the process (you will put in your passion and your time). If the bank is prepare to give you money against that business plan, you have slightly better odds to succeed. If the bank doesn’t want to give you that money, then perhaps reconsider the business case. Saying the above, as with everything in life, there are exceptions to the above rule, an example is Cecil John Rhodes asked Standard Bank for a loan in order to buy some of the last claims at Kimberley and Standard Bank refused, those last few claims was what was needed to start De Beers, I think for the next 100 years De Beers refused to do business with Standard Bank.

All I can say, good luck with your endeavour and your decision, it is a difficult decision and it is one that nobody else can make for you. Take your time with it, don’t rush it, and if you decided on a specific course of action, you need to put everything you have behind that endeavour or else I will guarantee you now it will without a doubt fail. Also, make sure you define what success is, buying an island for yourself, or just having a comfortable life style with a holiday once a year.

Too much text, put me off reading it all.....so here's my heartfelt:

While you are young, take the opportunities, whatever they are.
While you don't have massive bond/marriage/children commitments, take those risks or you will regret not doing so.

Most people end up living for a paycheck and end up settling because they are "not getting any younger", but if you get a chance to do something that you have a passion for then grab that with both hands and do it, do it blindly.
You will be rewarded even if it is not successful and your passion will likely make it a success.

It's as simple as that, don't over complicate it.

Skouperd. You have a cautious and analytical nature. thats how you operate.
Not everyone else does.
Whether you admit to it or not your cautiousness affects your analysis.

Anyway in this there is no right or wrong answer.
Take the advice that rings true to you fire.

In life you know the things you have to do, and only you know them.
Your level of happiness comes down to whether you are doing those things or not.

Okay gents, I've carefully read through all of your walls of texts several times.

Thanks for the feedback and advice Skoup, I will definitely keep a lot of what you said in mind. Do not think it's going to waste

The bottom line for me is, where I am now, the situation I am now and the hours I am spending now and what I am building towards now and where my career is going now... That's not what I want. I can say that as sure as I can say anything. I'll get a bigger paycheck in a few months, maybe even a promotion. Yay I'll finally be making 5 digits a month doing the same work, with less operations, and more development.

When I look at what work the senior developers do, when I talk to guys that have worked at EasyPay, Blue Label, Pepkor IT... No.

I fully understand what you mean Skoups, doing the simple small tasks over and over to master something. I fully agree with you, but that's not my point. My point is I can see where my career is going to go, and I know what development I'll be doing. Even if they give me the opportunity to travel to Africa, I'd still be doing what I do now, just on a larger scale.

Sure later on I'd learn intricacies surrounding transactions and all the fun processes behind it, and while it is interesting, it's not something that'll keep my going 8 hours a day for the rest of my life.

And Skoups, my vision of being successful isn't to own an island. It's being able to live and enjoy my life, which includes my career. I'm pretty sure you would have loved to build pcs for a living, but I'm also sure you enjoy your job, or at the very least, don't despise it.

Hell I'd love to write stories/screenplays and try my hand at indie games for a living, but I know that'll be something I'll do as a hobby. Hell I'm 21, who knows what will really happen. Maybe I'll just be the world's most successful bartender in Norway for a few years.

What I do know is, I have to escape now and I can't get stuck now. I'm young, I'm naive yes. I'm like a guy who just got his driver's license by passing out with a ford ka trying to drive a isuzu bakkie. I need to learn and I need to experience things, I need to take risks.

Also I'm a fairly confident little bastard, so I'm pretty sure that no matter what happens I'll be fine.

Once again thanks for the feedback from everyone.