Ice's Upgrade plans / Budget / Best Buy's

[Stu]

Hey Techhardware chaps,


I'm in the process of evaluating a budget and planning for the next year. I've been rather demotivated lately as I haven't reached many of my personal goals for 2010 and the year is drawing to a close, one of the goals was to look at upgrading/setting up a new rig.

I'd like your opinions and costing and ideas. As you all know I'm not exactly flush with moola so I have to look at the most cost effective bang for buck PC! Thus asking you guys for advice and opinions on what I should be looking at and estimating my budget.

I know that PC prices and hardware costing is about as stable as Paul's sanity so don't worry about that I am aware things will change. Also please do not quote me on retail prices as I can get everything from Frontoza/Sahara/Rectrum at cost +14% VAT

Hardware Setup:

- i7 Entry lvl chipset
- i7 Compatible Motherboard
- 8 GB RAM (looking at running win7 64bit)
- Suggested GFX Card (Have no idea what to get so chip in here guys/gals)
- 1x 1 Tera HDD (Sata 2)
- 1 x Entry lvl SSD disk (if cost falls within range)
- 1 x Tower case Coolermaster
- 1 x PSU 1000w
- Win7 Home 64bit? (Could use one work license but I feel ethically obligated not to)

And that's it... look forward to speaking with you all

[Megageth]

Ice I wouldn't recommend getting an SSD at this stage. They rock but anyone on a tight budget should rather put the $ into better mobo/graphics. Easy to get an SSD later and prices will only come down.

Not sure what your budget will be like for graphics but the new Radeon 6870's look like a good bang/buck card. They are quite close to the GTX470 on performance and retailing a LOT cheaper.

http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-6850-6870-review/14

As for mobo, I have no experience with socket 1366, no doubt Skoups can recommend a good ASUS model and Murgs can throw you with a Gigabyte one.

[J_Th4ng]

I'll get denis on the case...

Agree with Mega WRT SSD's. They are awesome, but the price is not affordable at this point. Rather get a smaller mechanical drive for OS/Games, and a large data drive - Last time I looked, 1.5 TB was the best tradeoff between cost/capacity.

The 6870 is indeed a great graphics card, so I'd check out the availability and pricing on that.

I assume that when you're looking at 'entry level i7', you mean socket 1156 and not 1366? On that chipset, you'd be looking at an i5-750 or a i7-860. The i7-860 though is over priced in my opinion, with the chip costing a very similar amount to the i7-920.

TBH, I need to have a better view of your budget in order to give you advice. There are so many components that one can consider, and will be abe to match your budget. Give us a ballpark figure to work with.

Oh, and WTF are you looking at a 1000W PSU for? That is seriously overkill for whatever you build, even if you were to go Xfire/SLI at a later stage. Rather just get a decent 750Wish PSU.

[Stu]

Ok so the 1000W is over kill? TBH I've been out of the Hardware game for so long! I haven't a clue on what to look for!

With respect to my budget! I honestly don't have one, it was a question of what is it going to cost me? And how could I accommodate it? This is more of a fact finder of what a entry level PC I could look at getting then setting a savings goal to reach that budget.

It's working backwards from the point of impact. Look forward to hearing back from you all.

The goal would be to meet the general Min gaming level requirements for newly released games. I've never had a uber kick ass PC and can live with running games on LOW if I can play them on the PC I'll be happy!

[Thor_23]

I have also been looking at the 6870 and its not priced bad at all and the perf looks good considering what the card cost...

Seems lightning has decided to say hi to me and I dont have a router or a network adapter on my pc atm. but the insurance will have to sort that out...

[Megageth]

Out of interest here is a price comparason between the GTX470 and Radeon 6870:

Radeon 6870: R2757
http://www.prophecy.co.za/sapphire-radeon-hd6870-gddr5-256bit-p-85963.html

GTX470: R4387
http://www.prophecy.co.za/gigabyte-gvn470oc13i-nvidia-geforce-gtx470-1280mb-gddr5-320bit-pcie-p-73290.html

and given that the BC2 performance is equal, not a hard choice...

[Skouperd]

Sorry guys, but I don’t quite share your views on the 68xx graphics cards. I suppose the reason why I don’t like them yet is because I think they are wrongly named and should be better named as the 67xx or in fact, even the 66xx series. Those cards are not worthy to carry the x8xx family and several people will upgrade to them just because of the name, it is unethical marketing. I know that ATI is planning to introduce cards at cheaper prices, but had those cards be correctly named the 66xx series, or the 67xx series I recon few of you guys will be looking that curiously at it. Granted, they are priced on exactly the right spot, but I would not be buying them just because they are ATI’s latest family of cards but instead because that is the maximum amount of money that I can spend on a graphics card. There are better cards out there for marginally more money.

Out of interest, I’ve installed some NVidia cards into some computers of late, and they are extremely worthwhile so I would not discount them as yet. Also, the AMD chipset is not a bad chip for budget conscience buyers.

Ice I appreciate that you currently don’t have a budget, but in order for me to provide you with some form of guidance, can you please tell me the following:

1. How old is your current computer, i.e. when did you buy / build it.
2. How often do you “upgrade” your computer?
3. When you upgrade a computer, do you do a complete upgrade, i.e. everything, or do you do it piece by piece? (i.e. new graphics card this month, six months later new CPU)
4. Are there any components in your current computer that you want / can / should re-use?

For instance, I tend to do a CPU / Motherboard upgrade only every 3 or 4 years, but am happy to upgrade my graphics card every other year. That way, I am smoothing out the costs of my PC addiction. Likewise, on my HDD, I have no problem to carry my old HDD / GPU over from my “old” computer (CPU/MOBO).

Now, if you are telling me that you plan to stick with your graphics card that you buy now for at least 3 years, then I would rather advise you to buy the NVidia range. If you are saying that you are happy to upgrade your graphics card in a year or two, then I would say go with the ATI range. However, depending on what you currently have, you may just decide to upgrade just your motherboard and CPU (and ram most likely).

With regard to the cost of the graphics cards herewith a quick list: (Excl VAT and excl profit margins) the ATI cards are the Sapphire range while the NVidia ones are ASUS. Asus generally tend to be around R200 more expensive on the same card.


ATI 5770 = R1357
GTX460 = R1899
ATI 6850 = R1999
ATI 4850x2 = R2199
GTX465 = R2345
ATI 5850 = R2599
ATI 6870 = R2699
GTX470 = R2772
ATI 5870 = R3210
GTX480 = R4399
ATI 5970 = R5151

All that I can say is that the new 68xx series cards is correctly priced, but they should not be seen as the new uber cards and definitely not be bought by people that currently have the 58xx series cards or even the 57xx installed.

[Megageth]

OK if you can pick up a 470 for under 3K then I would also support that card over the 6870.

[s3xy_j0nny]

Stu, I would advise you to give a total budget amount to Denis and get him to draw up some system options for you. The pc that he built for Mac in this manner is fkin EPIC. That way, the rest of the nerds can put their 2c into picking apart Denis' various builds.

[Stu]

Hey Denis,

thanks for the feedback, please find my current box specifications below.


Ice I appreciate that you currently don’t have a budget, but in order for me to provide you with some form of guidance, can you please tell me the following:

1. How old is your current computer, i.e. when did you buy / build it.
2. How often do you “upgrade” your computer?
3. When you upgrade a computer, do you do a complete upgrade, i.e. everything, or do you do it piece by piece? (i.e. new graphics card this month, six months later new CPU)
4. Are there any components in your current computer that you want / can / should re-use?

1. I bought the PC in 2007 November I think +/- 3 years old
2. Don't my GFX card and PSU poped and I have replaced a HDD in the past 3 years
3. Generally budget permitting I purchase the lowest specs then build up to my desired level. This is all cash flow dependent, I also am happy to by components month by month and then build the box once all is purchased and assembled.
4. No not really only looking at the HHD / DVD-WR moving over may look at using my current box as Media Centre all dependent.

Current specifications are as follows.

2.4 Duo Core Intel
Entry level Asus MB
2GB RAM
Nvidia GTS 8800 512MB
80GB Sata 2 HDD + 500GB Sata + 200GB IDE
Windows XP

It is really hard for me to say what I'd be willing to spend as really its about looking at what I can get if I where to save and then evaluate if it would be worth me doing this over the next couple of months, seeing as I work for myself I no longer get a 13th Cheque so I have to take this out of my current limited budget.

lets work with 5 - 6 months at 1000 ZAR p/m if this is the case rAge 2011 would be out of the question... so I really have to think long and hard about this choice....

[Phatso]

(not derailing here, sorry if it seems like it)

Skoup's, although, it makes sense as to what you saying regarding the 68xx series, when putting it up against the 470, the issue of PSU's usable comes into play.

I believe the 470 is a monster and drinks power like Lee on the SoCo.
In all reviews of the 6870, the power consumption comes up as a pro and looking at the 470, the power consumptions comes up as con.

Just my 2c :)

[Skouperd]

Cool, thanks Stu, give me a week or so and I'll post my views.

[pmurgs]

My thoughts. 1000W is definitely overkill. SSD is waste of money unless you swimming it in. Buy a better cpu / motherboard / gfx card / cooling for overclocking. 4Gb ram is more than enough for any games today as well.

Gigabyte... best overclocking motherboard maker... need to get right model tho, otherwise Asus is best choice.

Amd 68XX gfx cards are cheaper, faster, run cooler, use less power than equivalent nvidia offerings. Really... unless you a die hard nvidia fan, the choice is obvious.

[Megageth]

OK if you can pick up a 470 for under 3K then I would also support that card over the 6870.


+1

[SlipperyDuck]

OK if you can pick up a 470 for under 3K then I would also support that card over the 6870.

+1


+1'ing one's self = +100000

[s3xy_j0nny]

OK if you can pick up a 470 for under 3K then I would also support that card over the 6870.

+1


+1'ing one's self = +100000



Really? I thought

+1'ing one's self = :wank:

[Megageth]

s3xy_j0nny ]






OK if you can pick up a 470 for under 3K then I would also support that card over the 6870.

+1


+1'ing one's self = +100000



Really? I thought

+1'ing one's self = :wank:


Whenever I see that smiley ^ I always think, just go ahead and throw the dice FFS, they're shaken already.

[Skouperd]

Hi guys, I’ve been given this some thought. I am going to suggest something that I know will be against many of the other nerds believe systems, but my proposal will be the best to smooth out cash flow, and still be able to provide you with a respectable solution.

If you’ve asked me a year ago about an upgrade path, then I would have suggested something else, however, unfortunately, your motherboard, CPU and memory have served its purpose. As such, this will be a once off relative big cost that you’ll need to incur. This is my suggestion:

The Media PC:
I am making an assumption that your media pc and your main pc could be connected with a network cable some way or another. If it can’t let me know and I’ll help you figure a way out how we could connect them somehow.

Motherboard / Ram / CPU
For the media pc, we basically re-use your current CPU, Memory, and motherboard. None of those parts are worth upgrading individually, but they will make for an awesome media pc.

Case:
For the media PC, we obviously need a case, now you can buy a proper media case for anything in the R3000 upwards, but that is daft if our objective is to maximise cash flows. So, I would suggest you get yourself an old second hand case, pay nothing more than about a R100 or so. If you can’t find one, talk to me, I have some very old ones at home that we could use perhaps.

PSU:
The power supply that you currently have is strong enough to run your graphics card. A new CPU, motherboard and memory will not increase your power envelope, so I am suggesting we re-use your current PSU in your new GAMING RIG. That means that we now need to get a new PSU for your media pc. Now the nice thing is that we don’t need a huge PSU, in fact, a R200 PSU, with a 300W or something will do just fine. What I could suggest you consider is perhaps looking at Sahara’s pricelist, they tend to stock case+psu in one. The PSU you will get will be a no name brand, and most likely will kak in about 8 months’ time, but bear with me.

GPU:
Now plugging in an 8800 into a media pc is overkill in more ways than one. You need a R200 or R300 graphics card to be able to play back media. Obviously you are not going to be playing games on your media pc (at least not yet). Again, if you can not find a R200 or R300 graphics card, come talk to me. But we effectively need a small graphics card, capable only to push out a signal to your TV.

HDD:
I would suggest that you use your current IDE HDD in this pc. It should be big enough for you to have a respectable amount of videos on it that will last you a couple of weeks to watch, and when they are finished, you could delete them, and copy from your main rig again the next section of content.

DVD:
If you have a spare, use one here, but if you don’t have a spare DVD rom, use your current one in your main PC. I assume you do have a DVD player next to your TV in any event.


Ok, so in order to get your media pc up and running, you will need to buy a case (R100), a psu (R200) and a graphics card (R300). That means, about R600, but you don’t need to do that NOW. We can do that in a month’s time for instance.

The MAIN PC:
Ok, obviously we need to get you a new CPU, motherboard and RAM. But I would want us to re-use the current graphics card, hard drives, and the current power supply. Logic will follow.

CPU / Motherboard / RAM:
The CPU and Motherboard is something that you will be stuck with for at least 3 to 4 years, so spend every last cent you could on those two components. This is more true now than ever before since Intel is releasing new socket next year. In terms of memory, you only need to buy yourself one single 2GB module, we can easily upgrade the ram as cash flow becomes available. But the CPU, and the motherboard, we need to get the best we can afford now. My suggestion, is to get something like the socket i7-950, they are retailing now for less than R3000. I would suggest a single 2GB module for your memory, say R400, and then the balance we buy the best motherboard you can afford. Just remember, the CPU and the motherboard will need to remain your gaming rig for at least 4 years, after which it will most likely be moved to replace your existing media player or become a pc for your kids. Bottom line, those 2 pieces of equipment will not be replaced soon. We can easily upgrade RAM if we need it, and if the cash flow allows for it.

Case:
Even though your current case may be old, scratched or whatever, it will still do a fine job to house your valuables. Re-use it. My case is probably 10 years old now, and I can still use it for the latest motherboards today. One doesn’t need a fancy case.

GPU:
This is where my fellow geeks will disagree with me. I would reuse the current 8800 graphics card for the time being. Sure, you will not be able to play games on high details, but I would much rather spend that money you want to spend on the graphics card on a better CPU and motherboard now. At some point or another your graphics card will need to be updated, obviously, but the nice thing is that if you can hold on say 6 months or so with the current one, then you will be able to get similar cards as today at a much reduced cost. Thus, you’ll again be saving up on those cash flows of yours. Once you’ve upgraded your main PC’s graphics card, then you move the 8800 graphics card into your media pc (but read the section on the PSU first) and then this basically becomes a second gaming pc for your tv.

PSU.
The component that draws the most power right now in your system is without a doubt the GPU. New CPU’s uses less or equal power than the older ones so I would say let’s re-use your current power supply. This is however the first thing that we will need to consider upgrading in a couple of months’ time because you should work on the concept that your Media PC PSU will burn out in about 8 months’ time. You don’t need to get yourself a 1000W PSU, you really don’t. Most companies are working on reducing their power requirements due to heat etc. I would however suggest that when we upgrade the PSU, that you consider a good quality PSU with at least a 5 year warrantee. I like Corsair, but any good quality will do fine. When you upgrade your gaming’ rig’s PSU in a couple of months, we basically move your current PSU into your media pc, and we see how big an explosion we can make if we throw your “el-cheapo” psu onto an open fire. (It is cool, you should try it!)

HDD:
Right now, we use both the two sata HDD’s in this system here. We can easily upgrade to an SSD or a bigger drive in the future. No need to worry about that now.




Summary
Ok, so in summary, about R600 will convert your current rig into a media pc.

You need to get a new CPU / Motherboard and Ram, the best you can based on your current budget.

Then, depending on your needs a bigger HDD for either your main pc or for your media pc. This is a nice to have though. The other option is more memory for your main PC, but this is a “smallish” investment and not a big cash outflow.

The next big investment will be a good PSU your main pc. (you haven’t gave me the full specs of your current one, perhaps it is fine and we can skip this step)

Once the graphics really becomes unbearable, we upgrade the graphics card. Having a powerful CPU, you could easily plug in the latest cards (when you buy this) and still get a massive jump.

Once you’ve got the above, then you will be having a very respectable main rig PC, and a very capable media pc at that. We could then at a later stage also get better cooling for your CPU and start to overclock it (say in 2 years’ time when the CPU is starting to get slow for those games) we can get an SSD at some stage.

Stu, this is a very similar kind of upgrade path that I’ve been following for the last couple of years. The nice thing about the above is that you could now upgrade components as and when they are needed (or cash allows) and you could then carry them over from one build to the next. However, the only people I will ever recommend the above process is those that is not scared to get their hands dirty in terms of opening up their pc’s changing out graphics cards, installing new memory, things like that. But if you could hold on say a year with your current graphics card (with a decent CPU / motherboard / ram) then you could get yourself a nice new GTX5xx series (or something) and then in 2 years time, get yourself a second one and SLI them. Again, breathing in fresh life into your computer. The problem though, few people is prepare to stick with such a long term plan, but it definitely pays off in the long run.

I hope I’ve been able to provide one or two more options, and now the other guys could rip this apart.

[Megageth]

If you can't afford everything at once then that is a great upgrade path. Motherboard is important. IMO you can get a cheaper Intel CPU (quad core), clock it to ~3.5ghz and you will be set for gaming (eg i7-870 [1156] or the i7-950 [1366]). Good RAM will help with that.

[Stu]

One last think Skoup! Could you quote on AMD please, it's generally cheaper than Intel and quite frankly I'm not a fan boy.

[Skouperd]

Mega, that could be an option too, but I found that it is very rare that one will go about upgrading just a CPU, unless there is another demand for a CPU. I recon the i7-950 is actually not a bad buy right now, and it should be capable to last at least 3 to 4 years without a problem. 2 years without an overclock, and then overclock it there after with better cooling and the works. One could run the latest games today with a 4 year old quad core CPU. I don't think the CPU's is dating as quickly as they used to a couple of years ago.

[Skouperd]

Ice, the concept of going with AMD will be the same as the upgrade plan I've proposed. The only difference will be that you will then be looking at the best AMD CPU and the best AMD motherboard that you can afford.

However, theoretically, the Intel CPU's have 8 threads (4 physical cores and 4 hyper threaded) whereas the AMD CPU's can only handle 6 threads (the hexa cores). As such if you are buying a cpu that should last you 3 to 4 years, I would go with Intel.

Saying all that, the AMD Hexa cores range between R1600 and R2400 excluding VAT, whereas the AMD motherboards range anything between R500 and R3000. The cheapest Replublic of Gamers AMD motherboard is R2200.

For Intel, i7, the prices range between R2055 for the i7-930 up to R2165 for the i7-950. Anything higher and the prices goes ridiculous. The motherboards range between R2000 and R4000 with the cheapest ROG board coming in at R2300.

So, if I had to choose between a top of the range AMD CPU versus a high end intel CPU (the i7-950) I would go with the i7. The cost is virtually the same (for the same kind of performance), so it just makes more sense that way.

[pmurgs]

However, theoretically, the Intel CPU's have 8 threads (4 physical cores and 4 hyper threaded) whereas the AMD CPU's can only handle 6 threads (the hexa cores).


Hyperthreading is pretty much useless when it comes to games. Those are not real extra 4 threads. There are many conditions when they do not work at all. You only benefit from them with specific apps that can make use of hyperthreading due to their limited usage of certain cpu parts.

A true six core intel cpu without hyperhthreading will kill a four core intel with hyperthreading in 85% of the cases with a properly multithreaded application.

[Stu]

WOW Denis! Thank's I am very happy with that upgrade path, the only reason I suggested converting my current box to a Media PC is because I have XMBC installed on a P4 with 1GB RAM and a simple Gforce card. This enables me to play 720p content on my HDTV currently and if I carried my GPU over I could run full 1080p/i on my TV.

This is more of a want than a need. I think the main purpose for this upgrade is to meet the min hardware requirements for currently released PC games.

I'll post my exact spec's once I get home this arvi.

[Skouperd]

Murgs, the question is not if a true six core Intel cpu will kill a quad core Intel CPU, first off, the Intel Hexa core CPU's are R8000+, i.e. out of the budget so completely out of the question. However, the real question is will an AMD Hexa core with six true cores out perform an equaly priced quad core intel cpu running hyperthreading. I would say the answer is that the Intel Quad Core (with hyperthreading) will beat the six core AMD cpu. Now if you start overclocking BOTH CPU's which one will beat which one?

I would say that future games, and future programs will be benefiting more and more from multithreaded applications which sticking with a dual core now is the reason why so many of the current games are suffering on his pc.

[Megageth]

will an AMD Hexa core with six true cores out perform an equaly priced quad core intel cpu running hyperthreading


This is where it gets interesting. Now, on games, Intel has a slight lead. Later, when games really start multi-threading? My guess is the AMD. By quite a bit too. This to me is question that can only be answered by pure conjecture. Its also why I raised a question in your other upgrade thread Skoups about considering the AMD hex cores. Yes an Intel quad may give you 5-10 frames now, but when multi-threading becomes commonplace?

[Skouperd]

Yes an Intel quad may give you 5-10 frames now, but when multi-threading becomes commonplace?


Which is the time when you overclock the Intel i7 CPU to a 4GHz to regain the benefit over the 6 core AMD. Remember that you will not be able to overclock the AMD as far as you will be able to overclock the Intel.

Either way, they are both good CPU's.